Are laws more important than individual rights?

[Xest]

Ahah... now I've clearly hit a nerve!

Ok, you're so clever... answer my question.

If you say that the facts of the Laws of Physics prove that God doesn't exist, then you must accept that religion is false, because it is based on the existence of God, who (according to you) doesn't exist.

If this is the case, then you must accept that the way mankind is today is directly the result of evolution.

So, if you believe that God doesn't exist, how can you possibly blame the evil acts committed by man on God and religion.

If religion is a misguided "theory", then it comes out of the brain of man, which has evolved.

You can't have it both ways. If religion is to blame, you have to accept that God exists, or, it's just man believing in a God when there is no God, which is a result of how man's brain has evolved to believe in such things.

If you don't believe in God, then you have to accept that evolution has made man what he is today.

So come on, put your money where your mouth is. If you don't believe in God then how can religion possibly be to blame? If you're right, then religion is a belief that has come out of human evolution. So all the evil in the world is nothing to do with religion but how man has evolved?

I'll sum up the above in a step by step fashion that hopefully you can follow, although I doubt it.

- Religion is a control tool, made up for stupid people.

- Stupid people follow religion.

- People do bad things regardless of their beleifs

- Religion is often used as an excuse and a justification for the bad things

Therefore, it's not a question as to whether or not beleifs cause people to do bad things or not but that religion often incites bad things or is used to cover up bad things, non-beleivers don't need to cover up the bad things they do with religion.

It's somewhat ironic that you question how religion can lead to bad things when your very argument and defiance of any other beleif than christianity has for the past week be used by you to incite flamewars. It's that attitude, that your religion is right no matter, what no matter what's posed against it that leads to religion being the cause of major problems, particularly when you have people of two opposing religions pitched against each other. The difference with atheism is that atheists don't feel the need to go to war over their beleifs because they either don't have any or they have scientific evidence to justify their beleifs and that's the difference - that atheism is based on a lack of care or a quest for factual evidence of the world around us whereas religions are based on nothing but blind faith and speculation.

[Lairiodd]

In my opinion,they should indeed be fired, go to prison, and a lot worse. And so should people who aided them by covering it up.

ofc, courts and police should be blind to what religion someone is. For example, confessions to a priest should be admissable in court *OR* confessions to anyone should be inadmissable. If a friend confesses in confidence to another friend, that should be inadmissable. Likewise, compulsory reporting by doctors should be illegal without the permission of the patient etc.

A church that covers that up is at fault by their own rules. The rules of Christianity as taught by Jesus in the New Testament I think clearly state that doing harm to children is not acceptable. Any church that allows harm to children is not following those rules. The guild master should throw this church out of the guild.

This raises the question of how many of the churches and people who describe themselves as Christian would be accepted as that by Jesus.

I saw an interview with a priest. The interviewer asked if they would cooperate with the police, the priest say yes, but obviously religious law takes priority to civil law when deciding how to handle priests who committed abuse.

Imagine if a buisnessman said that "well we will cooperate, as long as it doesn't break internal corporate regulations" or something.

[Lieva]

I saw an interview with a priest. The interviewer asked if they would cooperate with the police, the priest say yes, but obviously religious law takes priority to civil law when deciding how to handle priests who committed abuse.

makes the priesthood sound like the mafia

technically religious law advised stoning to death.
hmm
guess they arnt sticking to their laws

[Lieva]

ofc, courts and police should be blind to what religion someone is. For example, confessions to a priest should be admissable in court *OR* confessions to anyone should be inadmissable. If a friend confesses in confidence to another friend, that should be inadmissable. Likewise, compulsory reporting by doctors should be illegal without the permission of the patient etc.

perhaps this part of the law should be altered.
These laws were made in the day and age where freedom of speech was nixed and innocent people went to jail a heck of alot more than they do now

Then again ive never been too sure on that.
A murderer confessing his sins to a priest. Seems to easy tbh.
Then again...if the admission of this confession was admissable .. wouldnt it just mean the person wouldnt confess ever? Unless they were REALLY dumb.
And if so..if the person HAD murdered someone...wouldnt that mean that they didnt really actually go for the faith they were confessing to in the first place? as if they truely believed they would have gone to the police anyway
So technically they cant be absolved in a faith they dont actually believe in

[Lairiodd]

If you say that the facts of the Laws of Physics prove that God doesn't exist, then you must accept that religion is false, because it is based on the existence of God, who (according to you) doesn't exist.

The question is fundamentally unanswerable. Science is about asking questions that can be answered. More specifically, it is about asking falsifiable questions.

For example, Newton gave a theory of gravity complete with equations. The theory was falsifiable, as all you needed to do was carry out an experiment. If it didn't match the theory, then you have shown Newton's theory wasn't perfect.

The previous theory included things like heavier objects fall faster etc. This was shown to be wrong and later replaced by Newton's laws.

For creationism to be a science, it must do 2 things

a) state the theory

b) give a possible method to prove that it is incorrect.

Something like:

"The universe and all life was created by a rational entity rather than as a result of chance"

You then need to come up with a way to prove it false. The problem is that if it is false, it is impossible to prove that.

I guess it could be proven false by a physics theory so perfect that nobody could question its accuracy. However, even then, you could argue that the entity that created the universe may have just tricked us.

If this is the case, then you must accept that the way mankind is today is directly the result of evolution.

So, if you believe that God doesn't exist, how can you possibly blame the evil acts committed by man on God and religion.

Religions exist, that is a matter of fact. There is no problem blaming them for the actions of their members. Religions can exist even if there is no God.

If religion is a misguided "theory", then it comes out of the brain of man, which has evolved.

You can't have it both ways. If religion is to blame, you have to accept that God exists, or, it's just man believing in a God when there is no God, which is a result of how man's brain has evolved to believe in such things.

If you don't believe in God, then you have to accept that evolution has made man what he is today.

Right

So come on, put your money where your mouth is. If you don't believe in God then how can religion possibly be to blame? If you're right, then religion is a belief that has come out of human evolution. So all the evil in the world is nothing to do with religion but how man has evolved?

Right, evil carried out by religions is the responsibility of the people who are part of the religion.

The problem is that religion uses the fact that people want to belive in a God to get them to do things they would ordinarily never do. Religions allow normal people to do horrible things. Also, religions require people to "switch off rational brain" before entering the Church.

[Cernos]

So are there no non-religious evil people in the world?

That's not what I said. It's pointless trying to discuss this if you're just going to deliberately misinterpret what is said.

Being "evil" (if we define "evil" as doing harmful things to other people as opposed to having a different set of morals/beliefs) is independant of religious persuasion. There's plenty of evil people who don't subscribe to any religion, and there's plenty of evil people who do.

Subscribing to a religion, no matter what it is, does not automatically make you a good or bad person. Nor does staying outside of religion.

But many religious people treat non believers as evil doers, people who need to see the light, be converted, suppressed or worst of all "saved" (how patronising is that?)

[Gandelf]

Either there is a god or there isn't. There's no inbetween. You can't believe in God when it is convenient so that you can point the finger at religion and then go back to not believing in everything else... that's hypocrisy.

If there is a God (as I believe), then the inhumane acts of individuals who believe in God, are indeed disgusting and deserve to viewed with utter contempt, and I acknowledge that.

If there is no god, then you have to accept that evil is something that has resulted from the way man has evolved. Religion therefore has been invented by man, but it is directly a result of evolution.

It's not fair to blame religion for all that is wrong... that's against the law, it's "incitement to religious hatred" (in the UK at least).

By the way who is "Little Timmy"... at lease have the decency to identify yourself if you've given me one point towards being banned for 3 days.

Banana... I salute you... you of all people have shown true wisdom in acknowledging my reasoning.

[<ankh>]

There is no God & there was never any messiah. Nobody is evil because of evolution..infact, there is no good or evil at all - just different opinions. (and imo the "evil" acts are often done by people with a bad childhood or people who are mislead in life...good example are lost "souls" who are stupid enough to belive in religious crap..)

Lets face it..you either belive in a higher existance or you don't - how often do you ever hear about people swapping beliefs?

Edit: Btw, one interesting view on it all is if you watch the episode of Derren Brown called Messiah where he convince people that he is some kind of messiah using just words. Who knows, perhaps this jesus lad was nothing else but an illussionist too?

Edit2: I can understand people who live in poverty who turn to religion in hope of getting a better life by giving themself false hopes - but I sure as hell can't understand the rest.

/Ankh

[Xest]

Oh go away Gandelf, your constant ignorance of what people saying amounts to nothing but flamebaiting because you're not even bothering to read people's posts.

I'm going to just 3-day ban you as you're incapable of having a reasonable and sensible discussion, consistently throwing decent discussions off course and doing nothing but inciting flameing with your blatant ignorance and arrogance, don't come back after the 3 days unless you've decided you're capable of reading other posts and responding with something other than further flamebait, this isn't the first time someone has mentioned that you're attempting to flamebait under the guise of trying to have a debate but it is the last time that I'll defend you on it.

Enjoy your short vacation and have a long hard think about whether you want to participate in sensible discussion or not before returning this time.

[luxury_yacht]

Being "evil" (if we define "evil" as doing harmful things to other people as opposed to having a different set of morals/beliefs) is independant of religious persuasion. There's plenty of evil people who don't subscribe to any religion, and there's plenty of evil people who do.

wow, big debait. i agree with cernos theres relijious and non religious peeple who are evil. but i kinda also agree with gandalf in that ther is a trend for peeple to blame religion for everyting thats is bad in the world.