This sounds like an interesting read...

[Gandelf]

http://www.conservativebookservice.com/products/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=c6805

[Lieva]

Its depressing people can make money out of hate and redicule of cultures

[Xest]

This is better imo:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Delusion-Ri ... 936&sr=8-1

[Lieva]

*sigh*

[Lairiodd]

Yeah, but presumably it doesn't have the whole pick one religion effect ? Dawkins presumably covers religion in a more equal opportunities manner. Having said that I haven't read his book so maybe he does differentiate.

[Gandelf]

Its depressing people can make money out of hate and redicule of cultures

I agree, but if there is any truth in what is written in that book, the fact that those who believe in an Islamic way of life with total disregard to our Western lifestyle wish to install their form of government in the West, means that whether you believe in a God or not is largely irrelevant. It's something to be concerned about whatever side of the fence you sit on, or even if you're in the middle. Could an Islamic government take control of Europe is a question we must consider and is it something to worry about?

[Gandelf]

I came across the book when searching for whether there was an English emblem before the red cross on a white background and found the link in an article about how prison officials have banned St. George tie-pins for prison officers because they may be offensive to Muslims.

[Xest]

I agree, but if there is any truth in what is written in that book, the fact that those who believe in an Islamic way of life with total disregard to our Western lifestyle wish to install their form of government in the West, means that whether you believe in a God or not is largely irrelevant. It's something to be concerned about whatever side of the fence you sit on, or even if you're in the middle. Could an Islamic government take control of Europe is a question we must consider and is it something to worry about?

Gandelf, look at both sides of the rumours:
- Muslims trying to install their goverments in Europe
- Christians trying to install their goverments in the Middle East

Which rumour do you think has more plausibility behind it right now? Hint: it's the one that involves a large western power installing a puppet goverment in a certain desert nation. Books like the one you originally posted are rather one sided, so it's a little hypocritical to suggest it's a valid idea, without also looking at the opposite story, and then looking at the situation in the world right now as a result.

Without meaning to start the whole religious debate all over again Gandelf, I'd imagine you're the sort of person that thinks Christian teachings should be mandatory in our schools also? I may be wrong of course, but I'm sure you can see my point - that there's a hell of a lot of Christians trying to push their beliefs into our schools, and more worryingly a lot of schools that already allow it! The whole debate surrounding Christianity vs. Homosexuality was a case of the church wanting to be given the right to force their beliefs on others in exactly the same way some extremist muslims want to force their beliefs on the west. Personally I'd rather every nation was secular, but individuals were given the right to practice their religion freely providing they don't force their beliefs upon others, well except Scientologists of course because they all just need to be executed for being too dumb

[Xest]

I came across the book when searching for whether there was an English emblem before the red cross on a white background and found the link in an article about how prison officials have banned St. George tie-pins for prison officers because they may be offensive to Muslims.

The American Red Cross wanted to get the use of the Red Cross symbol banned from computer games on health packs and such because they claimed it was copyright infringement, now THAT is worrying when you consider how many other meanings the red cross actually has!

Whilst I agree with you completely this is stupid, that muslims have no right to complain about England's flag whilst they're in England you have to realise the muslims doing so are a minority and for every muslim like this there's a member of some neo-Nazi group/BNP member wishing we could just whipe muslims off the planet. Both sides of the argument have people just as bad at the end of the day.

The only thing that does truly irk me somewhat however is that muslims are only 3% of the UK's population yet seemingly manage to dominate 80% of the media a lot of the time - this is of course largely the media's fault however.

[Gandelf]

Whilst I believe in Christian values, I do not seek to force those values on others. I don't think you're correct in saying that a certain large Western nation is trying to install a Christian government in a certain middle-eastern nation. It's more about installing a democratic system, that is not necessarily Christian. They say the ancient Greeks were the fathers of democracy and that was well before the birth of Christ. So democracy didn't come out of Christianity (not that I'm saying that's what you're saying).

In the UK it is ok to have different religious beliefs and there are no laws to prevent you from following any particular religion. Yes, there will always be extremist idiots who persecute those who follow a different religion, or way of life, but by and large I think you'll agree that as a nation we encourage different religious beliefs without prejudice. That's how it should be. Why can't we all just get along? Why can't we just follow whichever form of belief we choose without any fear of persecution?

Can we say that about the Islamic nations? Where the people are governed according to Islamic principles? Where you have to conform or risk persecution, imprisonment or even worse?

Just remember a few weeks ago when the British troops were arrested by Iranian forces. If you remember the female British soldier was forced to cover her head. Why should she have to do that? Shouldn't she have the freedom of choice not to have to do that? After all, she wasn't Muslim. Likewise, I've got nothing against Muslim women covering their faces and heads in this country... it's their choice and that's good.

I'm not arguing for or against the existence of God here... don't want to start all that again. All I'm saying is the the Western way of allowing everyone to follow whatever belief system they wish is how it should be. It should be an example for all nations to follow. All I'm against is fundamental religious governments taking control and forcing everyone to conform to its teachings.

Is that something you agree upon?